Talk:Seir

Wouldn't a silver stallion with gryphon wings be a Pegasus?

Martin

I am a little more concerned with whether the comma should be removed again. While what Stephen has written is how it should be, the comma free version has actually become a big part of the mythos of Seir.

Anyone else got opinions?

Mandos /s

I'm in favour of the original misplaced comma.

Last comment by william the inept.

William

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I think it should be a single Avatar not Avatars as you do not get more than one on a plan at once, and if banashed from a plan the Avatar can not be called on for 30 days. Having Avatars sort of promotes the idea of more than one.

--Jono Bean 20:23, 14 Nov 2005 (NZDT)

'Avatars' can still be correct. Each new visitation to the mortal realm uses a potentially new avatar. This also explains why banishment and other destruction of the avatar keeps the demon away for a month. They have to form a new one. Making an avatar is most likely a very bothersome duty for a being who'ld much rather be doing something else. This is why demons are traditionally very angry when summoned. It's the cosmic equivalent of getting mormons at the door during a candle-lit dinner.

William

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I always thought of Demons as being innately evil. A have never before seen a "Church" dedicated to the worship of a demon. I have encountered secret groups, hidden brotherhoods and temples dripping in blood, but never a Church.

I gather that there is now a "Church" of Seir in Seagate itself. Why haven't the Michaelites simply razed the place to the ground? They seem to work fairly hard to wipe out anyone pacted to demons. It seems hard to believe that they would allow the public worship of a Demon in the middle of Seagate.

Why does the Duke allow this? Can we assume that the Duke is happy to allow Demon worship in Carzala? Is it time for a new Duke?

Andrew 10:02, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)

I see them more as an aspect of a pantheon, from the perspective of the average person who has not met an avatar they are just another deity and will have churches and followers etc.
I also make the assumption that the rise of the Church of Light in the western kingdom is recent (last 1-200 years) after being relativly ignored prior and as the church has spread it's power over the Western Kingodom so it's presence is felt more. Seagate being on the frontiers is still in the process of being cvonverted and so sentiments are changing, thus no PoD temples in New Seagate.
Some of the demons are definatly considered Evil and are likely to be cults that are removed from society for antisocial behaviour but other may go under various names and covers, particularly the Water Demons, Sailors praying to gods of the sea don't know the specifics of the deomns powers just that it is their God.
I don't believe that a simple Black/White deliniation is a good thing when we have the range of Powers that we do. Removing them all and having a simple God/Satan Black white thing could be an option but I am not keen. I think it is better that they co-exist in varying shades of Grey and a less intolerant feel to the PoL.

Mandos 11:08, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)

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I've always considered Demons to be absolutely evil with fantasy genre, the dq world included. Id consider any Avatar with a 'gray' nature not to be a demon, but some other type of power. Before you can answer "Why does the Duke allow this" you need to have the nature of Demons clearly defined within the environment we play, and consistently applied.

Many guild members are demon worshipers, many openly acknowledgement their affiliation. It appears that guild member are allowed speak against, harass, interfere with and even *attack* PoL worshipers pursuing Demon worshipers (http://dq.sf.org.nz/archive/2004/2004-09/2004-09-20.html) with no repercussions from the Guild or Duke. Considering this it doesn't seem unreasonable that demonic cults are openly active in Seagate.

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I also would prefer not to have a Good/Evil setup. However, the demons, which includes the self-styled 'Powers of Light' in DQs cosmology are powerful, ascended entities with goals and purposes that are utterly alien to mortals. 'Utterly alien' can often mean 'callosly indifferent to' the fates of mortals that they manipulate to achieve these goals. The demons are wierd and amoral, thus very dangerous. Besides, look at most of the Gods from mythology. They're not nice and you'ld be hard pressed to attach good or even evil labels to them. And why havn't the PoLys sacked and raised the church of Sier in Seagate? Why hasn't your character done anything about it? A daemon church in the middle of Seagate? Screams 'adventure hook' pretty loud. I thought we were trying to promote character driven quests/motivations. Open the box and peek inside :-)

The demons are dangerous and inimical to mortal civilisations. But then so are the Gods. Go read the Illiad, Ramayana or even the Old Testament. It's really a matter of choosing your poison.

William

The other problem we have is that Demons and Angels in DQ are not God created Good/Evil beings, they are mortal entities that have risen to immortality. Why on earth would that define someone specifically as Evil, most of them probably are and as William mentions they will have a callous impression of 'Mere mortals' and may seek to use them in an evil fashion but they will work to their own ends that may be merely selfish rather than absolutely Evil. Particulary given that a number of GM's play the PoL as a pack of Evil selfish bastards as well it seems a little off to not allow the PoD a range of options.

Mandos 15:23, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)

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Surely the response of the adventurers, Church and Duke is based on how the demons and their followers are perceived, not on any absolute metaphysic. Particularly in Seagate, people are very cynical and world-weary, and temples are just another neighbour. As long as the sacrifices are over by ten... THe question then becomes do people think that demon cultists are evil? anti-social? trustworthy? worth offending? What about the Powers of Light cultists?

I think that some demon cults are considered anti-social - eg. Aim fire cultists, the children-eating cultists, Renove, Leraje, etc. Others are not considered anti-social, as they do social stuff - Seit and the "Wise President", and a few of the others are actually better, more helpful neighbours (if not better people) than the PoL cultists. There neighbours respond to them as such.

The other Andrew. 15:54, 16 Nov 2005

Given the discussion on the web and the new additions to the Powers page is it ok to delete this conversation to tidy things up?

Mandos 13:01, 18 Nov 2005 (NZDT)